F1 » Ickx: Rosberg Schumacher's biggest enemy in F1 2010

Contrary to the popular school of thought, it could well be returning F1 legend Michael Schumacher who has difficulty in keeping up with Mercedes Grand Prix team-mate Nico Rosberg in F1 2010, argues Le Mans hero Jacky Ickx

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Alan D - Unregistered

January 25, 2010 11:56 AM

Richard, I agree with you about the head banging bit. I think if someone was genuinely interested in the history of the motor car then they'd want to know more about these early pioneers, they'd want to know where the "facts" they'd been fed were wrong so they had a better understanding and appreciation of the history, but Johnson is saying he will defend his world view at all costs. His position is more important to him than finding out the truth.

Alan D - Unregistered

January 25, 2010 12:19 PM

Will, the Lenoir vehicle looks more like a car to me than the Benz tricycle. There is a photo of it here in the museum after the restoration work on it was completed:


and I've seen the old sepia photo of it carrying four passengers. Admittedly it was pretty slow, about the same speed as you could walk, but that was about par for the course in the early autos. There is also no evidence that this car was any less reliable than the first Benz which, incidentally, was unable to go up hills unassisted until they added gearing in a later model.

Alan D - Unregistered

January 25, 2010 12:22 PM

Actually, being unable to go up hills unassisted isn't that unusual. 20 years ago I was in a Trabbi in Eastern Europe where we had to get out and walk whenever we came to a steep hill. The lawn-mower based engine could cope with the driver, but a couple of passengers as well was just too much.


January 25, 2010 2:28 PM

Well, take your medium over my preffered medium.
I can live with that.

Cant really understand about the head banging bit.
Perhaps if you are hard of reason and logic and not so dismissive of online resources.

Quote your source and i will quote you 3 serious publications countering your own.
Fair is fair, you may be right. But I would say I'm more right than you.
I will not demean your source(whatever it is) as you so readily mine.
So without further ado, list your publication and I will counter them with my findings.

will - Unregistered

January 25, 2010 2:54 PM

Alan, yes I see your point- my personal view on the Lenoir is that its aesthetcally closer to the steam powered carriages of the era. The first Benz was very spindley looking but it was definately the blueprint for all cars that followed and the 4 wheelers produced by Benz and Peugeot in the 1890s are really the first true motorcars


January 25, 2010 3:08 PM

johnson, i have referred you many times before. google in "first car". this will lead you to ABOUT.COM. then go to "inventors" and then to "history of the motor car". ALL the info is there! believe it not if you will, but there is more info there than there is on wiki or QI!

and for your info, i am a collector of classics and vintage, and the oldest car that i have personally owned and worked on, is a 1910 le zebre. it couldnt go up hills very well. single cylinder 600cc monobloc engine. carbide lights, transmission brake etc


January 25, 2010 4:06 PM

Richard this is your chosen resource "about.com", correct?

Well lets see what they say of Benz.

"The men and women behind the over 100,000 patents that created the modern automobile. Biographies include for example: Karl Benz, the German mechanical engineer who designed and in 1885 built the world's first practical automobile"

Hmmmmmmm that sounds pretty clear to me.
I guess you will say I misconstrued what they are trying to say lol

This isnt my "beloved wiki" (as you and your mafia so always celebrate) This is YOUR REFERENCE!
OOPS eh?


January 25, 2010 4:38 PM

johnson, you are trying to make the comments match your perception. i never said that benz did not build the first COMMERCIAL car. again, read my comment! you originally said "benz built the FIRST car"! NOTE THE DIFFERENCE!

the people who had built cars before hand, built them for their own use and did not exploit the possibility of commercial use. benz used patents that had already been filed and expired. he did NOT create the first ICE. he did NOT create the first horseless carriage. he just made it commercially viable!


January 25, 2010 5:12 PM

Johnson, but why do you have to spoil another wise interesting forum? Why do you have to resort to calling people MAFIA? I haven't seen any personal insults to you from the people you are labelling MAFIA, do you know that MAFIA is EVIL? You certainly know who is the proud owner of the pen name EVIL TWIN, I honestly appeal to you to change your attitude to this forum so that we will enjoy this forum a lot more and make it more interesting, as I SAID BEFORE, I am convinced that you are capable of a good dialogue even on technicalities.please follow my honest appeal.

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