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andrew. i was referring to dtm. mika, ralf, dc have all tried dtm. dc and ralf bombed, mika got one win (i think) but otherwise was a midfield runner. but i do like the series, it just takes a different sort of driver. one of the reasons mooted why f1 drivers have difficulty, is that they cannot see the front of the car or its wheels, and cannot place the car as accurately as an f1 car.