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Also, the boring 'but Stoner won on Ducati' is an invalid argument too. ****ne Wenger won titles with ****nal. Would Alex Ferguson be a 'fraud' and worse than Wenger if he went and couldn't win titles with ****nal?? NO because ****nal are not in a position to fight for titles now (partly due to Wengers mismanagement!)... Only stat that matters is career titles.