It's not too late for Mark, reckons team-mate.

At 31, Webber admits that he just have another five years in the top flight to achieve his aim of landing a race winning seat.

From current, recent testing only Ferrari and Mclaren seem to be sure things, but from time to time someone else does emerge.
Ferrari and McLaren are currently settled with Kimi, Felipe, Lewis and Heiki all relatively younger drivers than Webber and also more highly rated.

His current team RBC have got a decent budget, a very good engine supplier in Renault and Adrian Newey as their Chief designer.
Mark should do well to concentrate on pushing the RBC to its limits because at the moment that is the best, possible drive that is available for him.

In F1 equipment is everything and the main purpose of the driver is to provide ballast and fill the gap between the front and rear wheels. If Webber ever gets good and reliable equipment he will do well.

As an Aussie and a Mark Webber fan it's been a frustrating six seasons. he seems out of sync with fate. It's either not a correct decision with wich team to join driven by loyalty or bad managment decesions. If not that he seems to be able to drive cars to their limits and beyond either breaking them or that sync with fate gets him involved in unfortunate or unlucky situations. He certainly is one of the ultimate Qualy drivers as he seems to continously be in the top 10 and generally out qualifies his team mates and that's the hope factor for us fans. I can understand him drawing lines and setting realistic goals as you can't keep banging your head if it's just not mean't to be. Go Webber!

As an Aussie and a Mark Webber fan it's been a frustrating six seasons. he seems out of sync with fate. It's either not a correct decision with wich team to join driven by loyalty or bad managment decesions. If not that he seems to be able to drive cars to their limits and beyond either breaking them or that sync with fate gets him involved in unfortunate or unlucky situations. He certainly is one of the ultimate Qualy drivers as he seems to continously be in the top 10 and generally out qualifies his team mates and that's the hope factor for us fans. I can understand him drawing lines and setting realistic goals as you can't keep banging your head if it's just not mean't to be. Go Webber!

CA - You clearly don't know what you're on about.

As for Mark Webber, I've always felt he was desperately over-rated. poor team mates and mediocre performances - he's nothing special.

I strongly disagree with Mr Kipling's comments.

I have no doubt if you put Webber in one of the top teams he would be scoring wins and podiums and likewise, if you put Hamilton etc. in an unreliable Red Bull or slow Williams, then they to would be in the midfield.

If Webber is so average, why did he outpace Rosberg race after race when at Williams, and yet now the posts would suggest Rosberg is something special!

I would suggest CA is the one that does not know what he is talking about...

That should read...

I would suggest Mr Kipling is the one that does not know what he is talking about...

I will say it again equipment is everything in F1. Put Hamilton in the Red Bull and tell me where he will finish. F1 races are won and lost offtrack. This sport as it is is a technology race with those best equipped providing the best outcome.

The driver is incidental in the process.

If they want more driver input give the cars more mechanical grip reduce aero effect but most importantly clean up the dirty air that one car creates for the one behind making overtaking all but impossible at speed.
At the same time limit wind tunnel hours as is done with testing and maybe when some of these things are done we can evaluate the real performance of drivers in formula yawn.

If you're so bored by F1 why come a posting here?

Simon..I used to follow F1 but but it lost me with the lack of overtaking on the track and where the grids where team A first row,team B second row of the grid etc.

I think Webber's potential is unknown because of his past equipment level.

What brings me to this site,well as you would know this site promotes many different forms of motor sport one of which is MotoGP which is what I have followed for the last two years. I saw the forum subjects re Webber and the AGP night race threat from the home page.

You should take a look at MotoGP and compare it to F1 as an excitement spectacle.

F1 is more professional but as far as the racing goes it is a yawn.

You still care deep down. that's why you post here, and why you're reading this.

Simon..Whether I care or not is obvious but let me ask you some questions.

How do you assess whether a driver is good or otherwise on today's F1 environment?
No one liners please.

Would you rate an F1 chief engineer as more important to outcomes than an F1 driver?
No one liners please.

How would you deal with the matter in F1 where it can be all but impossible for a following driver to overtake?
No one liners please.

If after years of little to no success and a possible global downturn do you think that Honda and Toyota may decide to pull the pin on F1?
No one liners please.

How would you compare F1 and MotoGP for entertainment value?

I would appreciate your response.

Since you ask so nicely I'll give it my best shot.

First - I love MotoGP too, so we're not that different. But I'm a Rossi fan, so not too happy at the mo.

On drivers, I think you can only assess relative to the car they're driving, as it has always been. Are they getting a car to where it has no right to be? Do they put it in lap after lap. How do they compare with their team mate, do the team get motivation from the driver. But there are signs you can spot even on TV - courage on moves (eg FA at 130R a year or two back), or the way they make a car move - I thought LH made his car visibly dance at Monaco for instance. But mainly it's the teammate comparison.

On engineer question - it's the team as a whole that is important, more than any one person. I think if you had the best technical director but a poor driver, you would ultimately fail, as visa versa. So I'm think you need both.

On overtaking - I think the real problem is the cars are so reliable and consistent, each race is a long sprint. The fastest car tends to stay the fastest car throughout the race. In that case it doesn't matter if the track was 1/2 mile wide, cos the faster car will just move away. So you need closer performance and some inconsistancy. Better minds than mine are failing to solve the problem of how right now!

All manufacturers, except possibly Ferrari, ultimately pull out. Straight capitalism - they're there to make money from it, they stop when they percieve they are not getting value. But then all 'constructor' teams will ultimately close or sell, so there's not that much difference.

MotoGp is regularly more exciting, but not always. When Casey gets a good start and motors off into the distance I find that boring too.

But in all forms of motorsport, the best drivers / riders usually end up on the best equipment. And if, for instance, you're on a factory Honda bike this year I doubt you'd be excited by your seasons prospect, any more than Jenson is!

Thanks Simon for your detailed and reasoned responses. I suspect that our thoughts may not be that dissimilar on most motor sports matters.

Even though I am critical of the actual races in F1 I will still watch races in my own time zone(a bit of a tragic I guess)but I no longer get up in the middle of the night to watch as I do with MotoGP.

Rossi will be back at the front at Jerez.

If I was asked the most memorable moments I could recall in F1 I would have to say it was the turbo era when in qualifying these things looked like an F4 Phantom with unburnt fuel trailing from the exhausts. Not sure how that would be viewed in an envirionmenally conscious world today. Take care...

Webber is still a champ for being an Aussie and actually making it to the top game. The last guy to do so was David Brabham back in 1994 with the ill fated Simtek team. Turns out David is one of the most successful and consistant sports car drivers around to this day. I don't think people realise how hard it is to get into F1, especially if you are an aussie trying to get in on talent alone. If it wasn't for Paul Stoddart who took a huge risk, Webber may have never had a race seat (although he was a valued test driver for Benneton). Results aside, thats a bloody good effort.

Hey Simon..I found another on this forum who thinks F1 races can be boring and is also inclined to watch motor bikes.

His name is a P Head. I think he is a prominent figure in F1. It is nice to know there is another out there who shares my views re F1 racing.

P Head? I remember that name from some time ago. He looks a little like Alan Jones.