FGSport stands by '600GP' statement.

cool! They want GP600 couse it sounds to me like GP800 is going to dustDD welcome back 990cc

This whole 600cc category is a bunch of Ar*e! So, manufacturers who
cannot already afford to play in the 800cc category through lack
of funds will spend more money developing a new "nearly MotoGP" sized
engine that they cannot sell onto the streets to make money back?

What is the point of a 600cc engine? Why not make a CLEAR distinction
between MotoGP and the lower category and have 400cc? Then you could
base that engine on HALF the existing MotoGP unit!

Then you would have a good motor, a clear difference from MotoGP and
it would meet all the prototype requirements and be light and not interfere
with WSBK...sigh, is it just too obvious?

I only hope Capoheira is right.

Unfortunately I can't see it happening. The manufacturers having spent all that
money on developing 800cc engines on "safety recommendations" (yeah, they're faster now than the 990's were on a lap!) They wouldn't be too keen to take that hit again and go back to 990's.

How about 400cc twins with no traction control? If they think that's too peaky how exactly are they managing to handle 250cc 2-strokes now? They're pretty peaky!

*IF* it has to go 4-stroke then my wish would be 200cc to replace 125's, 400cc
to replace the 250's and 800cc MotoGP class.

I wish they would do that too Buell, but my first thought is can we use another class with just 18 on the grid, because I think that is what would happen. 600cc is just too close to 800cc anyway, and I suspect that now that high sides are back they'll be looking to reduce the 800cc soon. Years ago they tried to reduce costs by putting a limit on No of cylinders and No of gears but I don't think it worked. I have always advocated using less gears as a way of slowing the bikes down in the interests of safety. Totally different engine tuning would be needed thereby self regulating.
But we have to remember that GP bikes HAVE to lap faster than WSB.

Exactly codger! You don't see Formula Renault or A1GP lapping faster than F1!
MotoGP HAS to be the pinnacle of the sport, otherwise why race there? Interestingly,
statistically speaking, were there as many highsides during the 990cc era compared
to the 800's? hmmmm! Safety measures eh? I reckon they've just moved the accident areas
to a different part of the corners...now instead of crashing INTO the corner they crash OUT of the corner. Be interesting to see what the stats were on that.

I really dont understand this whole 600cc bit.

The big Jap 4 / KTM and a few other's all make 450cc singles for their off road bikes. Why dont the use them. At certain tracks I can see a 600 lapping faster then an 800. We have already seen it this year, with the 800's going better then 990's.

Single 450cc 4 strokes. That would be one hell of championship!

I agree on the 450cc single idea however if they were to use their motocross engines then that would contravine the production based rule also.

I think the 500cc twin that KTM and Aprillia proposed is the way to go and then replace 125's with a 250 single.

The people who run MotoGP are so lost at the moment they need a full clean out and a new team in to fix the problems they have created in the last couple of years. No single person should own the sport.

The funny bit was that Dorna threatedned to scrutinize Supersport 600 machines for "prototype parts". I never knew Dorna had the rights to govern the availability of prototype parts in other motorcycle championships. This is ridiculous and only sounds as an empty threat because now they are realizing that "low cost" and "prototype" do not go together.

The only cost-realistic way that this can be implemented is prototype chassis with production-derived engines, improved with new pistons, valves etc. This will clearly bring Dorna in conflict with FGSport.

I think that this is a good chance for the factories to review their commercial bike categories. 1000cc is too much...

Wiggysan, the only issue is the characteristics of the 450cc offroad motors are totally diff to those needed for a road racer, but I still think 450's could work.

The other issue to consider here ... none of the current 125 / 250 manufacturers are known for making 600cc engines, so will a 600cc prototype class interest them?
Surely developing a 600cc prototype isnt any cheaper than a 800cc prototype, so they may as well go MotoGP then anyway?

If not, that would leave the Jap 4, & why would they be interested in a 2nd development expense for a class with 200cc less?

Finally, shud they all support it & say Kawasaki wins ... why would they then carry on loosing in MotoGP?

...cont

So we could well see some of the current MotoGP manufacturers choose to go 600cc prototypes INSTEAD of 800cc MotoGP, which will just dilute an already small field.

If none of KTM / Aprilia / etc decide to step up to either class ... well, we could end up with 2 non-events that Dorna will need to run together in a single race with 2 separate classes, just to create some sort of show.

Keeping the current 2-stroke classes for manufacturers that are still interested in racing there is making more & more sense.

Dice,

You make some good points.

I really don't see an answer that will give a decent field of bikes. Are we witnessing the end of MotoGP.

WSBK and WSS are getting stronger and stronger with huge fields of bikes, good sponsorships, good riders, contested races and no interferrence from the governing body to ensure a particular rider has the best chance to win the title.

The fans can also relate to what is being riden because they can ride the same thing on Monday.

Imagine what it will be like in another 2 years with at least 3 more manufacturers in there whilst in MotoGP only Honda and Yamaha are allowed to fight for the championship.

if they change the rules is will change everything. it will take several years to develop new bikes it will cost billion's of euros.
it will be sad to see 15 or so bikes on the ex 250cc grid .
the chances to find new talent will be harder as well.

Yeah, Jack is right 2 tho, the only cost effective class would be a prototype chassis with 600cc production engines, but aside from the issue with FGSport that still excludes KTM, Derbi, etc - who dont make production 600's, so we're left with the same 4 Jap manufacturers as MotoGP. & like u mentioned, WSBK is growing its manufacturer support.

If u look at racing budgets (travel / accom / staff / spares / even the actual bikes) ... there isnt a huge difference between MotoGP & 125/250. The biggest difference comes in R&D & also rider salaries. A new manufacturer supported prototype class of any sort will increase those 2 expenses, begging the question - why not just go MotoGP?

A major part of the cost of running the current 800's is the electronics. Simply ban traction control on the 600's and have a standard electronics package that cannot be tampered with and that will keep the costs down.
The 600 engine can be a standard race engine sold to teams who can make changes as they wish, rods, pistons etc. The frame will be bespoke, suspension by the usual suspects. Voila, one relatively cheap prototype, similar to the old F1 bikes.
Lots of different frames and engine specs would make for an interesting series.
Team Roberts were interested in producing bikes, maybe they could do something like this, or maybe Ilmor.

Dorna's point about production parts is, if Motogp cannot run ANY production parts in their 'Prototype' series then FGSport cannot possibly be allowed to run prototype parts in a 'Production' series. If you check out the swingarms in WSB you'd be hard pressed to find a bog standard production item, same goes for rods, pistons, clutches, electronics. So, Flammini may shoot himself in the foot if he complains too much.

An alternative cost effective method. Consider MX, enduro and the emerging popularity of supermoto. The Japanese and European big players take it seriously and invest heavily in R&D. The standard engine config is a big single but Aprilia have a 450/550 twin which is kicking butt - IMO a matter of time before the others follow. By replacing the 250s with prototype twins of about 500cc then they are only spending money on engine development they would have had to spend regardless. The supermotos/MX/enduro race bikes get a production based version of the engine and the development costs could be recouped through sales of privateer race bikes and the numerous streetbike derivatives.

WSBK and WSS have always allowed for certain areas of the bike to be modified. Otherwise you're talking about Superstock rules. It's MotoGP that changed its rules (for the four-stroke 'prototype' era) not WSBK. Dorna has dug itself a hole.

The trouble with the one engine for all 600cc idea is that how can a manufacturer, such as Honda - which prides itself on its engineering ability - boast about a machine, the 'heart' of which (the engine) has not been designed or built by them?

Honda, Aprilia or whoever enters the new class would just become engine tuners, not engine manufacturers.

Don't forget that some production based parts are allowed in motogp, otherwise where would you draw the line - prototype front brake levers/handlebar grips/valve caps? - it's things like the chassis and main engine parts that must be prototype.

Dorna are trying to twist the distinction to imply that because grand prix bikes must 'not be based on production machines', it therefore means that WSBK/WSS bikes cannot have a single prototype part on them.

That's not the rules. Clearly some crossover of production/prototype parts can and should take place in both championships, but the main parts must be different. Production based in WSBK/WSS, prototype in GP.

Aprilia and KTM (who supply most of the 250 field) are on record as saying that they won't support a 600/4 category - and why would they - they don't make supersports bikes.

Just like the change to 800cc its a deliberate attempt to put Honda back on the podium more often -Dorna being well and truly in their pocket -I suspect it will back fire just as badly as the 990/800 change.

400-450cc makes some sort of sense - similar HP to the 250s albeit a tamer delivery - the trouble is it will cost millions more in R&D so the smaller companies will struggle - if the format stays aligned with something the manufacturers actually sell then its possibly justifiable - only the 450 twin makes sense