Crash.Net User: TalentFan

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TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:23 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Ok.... I will try to keep it simple. You understand that there is one optimal racing line around a track, yes? There is also an optimal point of transition from getting off the brakes, and getting back onto the throttle. The amount of lean angle and power that can be applied is limited by the grip (less lean = more grip, more power). The OTT tech & TC optimises throttle and grip, & therefore acceleration & speed once past the Apex and OUT of a turn. Seamless auto box and slipper clutch helps maximise braking on corner ENTRY. All these things mean that while the tech helps reduce the relative gap between bikes, it makes it much, much harder to pass as the bike in front is near perfect, so you need to be better than perfect (impossible) to pass unless they make a braking error or you force one with a block pass to lose them time. See? Tech Closes time gaps, but also closes down the chances made by human error. Perfection equals PROCESSION. Human error and human skill are eroded by OTT

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:02 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


...... You're the one flogging a dead horse, as the proof of their effectiveness is that HRC spend BIG & use them. As for the general point? Its that the OTT electronics are taking away nearly all the opportunities to Race and Overtake. Hence the Block Pass being so popular, as physically disrupting another riders progress is the only way to create an opportunity, as the tech is eliminating all the other opportunities that could present with only human control. The technology and advanced performance of the bike packages now has transcended human limits in the pursuit of ever faster lap times. So its now getting pointless for a Rider competition, and the only beneficiary is the Manufacturer who spends biggest and wins most. This is the unfortunate reality Mick. You try hard to deny it, and yes this truth is not what most fans want to accept. Time to face reality.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 6:55 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


mrfill: If the electronics are as clever as you think, nobody would ever fall off unless they were hit. But they're not. It still requires skill to control the machine. When F1 had TC, cars still spun. MGP still has high sides. Moto2 has high sides - and they have no TC at all.
TC cannot do anything to manage and recover highsides initiated from a closed throttle, only from an open throttle mrfill. Check up, MotoGP boys are pushing so hard into the apex on braking that the rear can come around off the gas and then grip again at an acute angle and highside the rider. The TC is working to do its job, maximising grip & drive while controlling and regulating the throttle and wheelspin to prevent highsides ON THE POWER. Its not my fault if you dont understand whats happening and this stuff works.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:25 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


cokerel:
Talent Fan is right, smooth off, in order to get the tires to break back in to the limit of static friction, away from kinetic/dynamic friction. A high side happens when the rear wheel grips too suddenly and bike is cocked and both wheels are pointing different directions and your a** is flying like God lifted you out of the seat himself. wikipedia friction RSMick. You might learn something.
May be right but it is stating the obvious. My 12 year old nephew could work that one out.
Good. Can your nephew explain it to RSMick & mrfill please?

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 10:02 PM
Last Edited 13 days ago

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Brain A Moto2 bike makes what, 130bhp? Controlling 130bhp is well within ordinary road riders and clubbie race weekend warrior standard.... without slicks. A 1000cc with over 200bhp and no aids is a whole different ballgame. These things with a totally stupid 250+bhp would be unmanageable and proper nasty things. Just ask Pedro. Youve not dispelled any myths whatsoever. EDIT by CRASH.NET: Remove poster attack. And.. the times are closer with electronics. That does not mean that the racing is more competitive. Just look at the general finishing order week in, week out. Your argument leaks like a sieve, as its based on noise, not logic.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:05 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Brain: That makes no sense as usual. If the finishing times are closer than any time in the history of the sport, it most certainly means the racing is more competitive. Again, you know nothing about the history of the sport. From first to last, racing is closer than it has ever been PERIOD\blockquote] It makes no sense... TO YOU. It's not my fault you lack the wits to get it. If racers are running closer together only means that the electronics are minimising loss of time relative to one another. So yes, closer together. However, the regular and predictable finushing order HAS to tell you something. Which is that, despite bejng a bit nearer to a rival, they arent actually able to compete with that rival and effect a pass. And this is because while the OTT tech makes you lose less time, it means there is less human error, which equals far less opportunity for passes. GEEZ!

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 8:49 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Oh Dear. RSMick. Lets talk basics. How about an engine speed limiter? A race engine spins up AMAZINGLY fast, and peaks at what, about 18,000rpm? Thats 300rpm per SECOND, or a Frequency of 300Hz yes? An ECU is able to recognise the rate of acceleration of the engine, recognise it will exceed its rpm limit, and modulate the throttles to prevent engine over-rev. An engine spins a LOT faster than a wheel (which also has a rate of change of speed thats a lot slower than an engine too), so an ECU has a LOT more time to work out wheel speeds relative to one another and do something about it. In fact, although it'd be much, MUCH harder to solve, I bet HRC have some algorithms to try to assist on closed throttle highsides as well. The biggest proof though is the fact that these systems are THERE and employed. If the human was better at the job, they'd be unnecessary. I know you are involved with electronics Mick, so maybe that's why you defend their use in MotoGP. You're the one flo

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:49 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


............. Also... the data tells them the absolute maximum F wheel speed that can be achieved at any point on the track, and I would expect its possible to adjust the peak parameter for F tyre wear through the ECU. Then the TC is programmed with the limit parameter for R wheel spped in relation to F wheel (to allow controlled power slides but prevent highsides on the throttle). The scope for tweaking rider aids within the vast array of sensors through data collection, analysis is almost only limited by your imagination, as long as the clever engineers can then construct a workable code. And HRC & Yam have some VERY clever engineers. So its very possible that they can program the ECU to be Proactive on throttle modulation to maximise lap time and help minimise excess spin and give the TC even less to do. Its how I'D do it, & HRC are cleverer than I am. So if I can think of it........

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:42 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Also. Basic stuff we use in machinery. Speed sensors able to measure in MHz, and controllers able to interpret and react in tiny fractions of a second. Its been reported that the very best racers have reaction times of over 0.5s, but less than 0.7s. If they have a reaction time less than 0.5, then it is because they anticipated the event and acted proactively, not reactively. (This is why Drag Racing has a minimum acceptable reaction time to launch.. to minimise wins gained through anticipating the lights). Now... are RSMick, Brain & mrfill REALLY going to try and tell us that electronics cannot react to a highside faster (and with just the right amount of throttle modulation by constant F & R wheelspeed monitoring) than a human? Also... the data tells them the absolute maximum F wheel speed that can be achieved at any point on the track, and adjust it for F tyre wear even through the ECU. So its very possible that they can program the ECU to be Proactive on throttle modulation

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 10:24 PM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: How long does it take for you to turn your hand 90deg in a moment of adrenalin rush? Why do we still get highsides? How long do you think it takes to scan the code?
The hard bit is NOT turning your hand 90 degrees. If you'd ever experienced a power slide you'd know that closing the throttle fully is THE way to ensure you'd get pinged to the moon. It needs to be backed off just enough to control the slide and bring it gently back into line. And electronics processes faster and with the right amount faster and more consistently than humans. Also, the rare highsides we get now are off a closed throttle, not on the power.


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