Crash.Net User: TalentFan

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TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:52 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


@ RSMick. You're clearly a clever guy and know lots more about how electronics work than I do. But... you seem a bit lacking in how a motorcycle reacts. I assume you ride, but from your lack of understanding, then either you have never experienced a Highside, or if you have, then you didn't undertstand what contributed to it, nor how to manage one. I HAVE had highsides, and I have also saved a few. And in truth when I managed to save one, I was dead chuffed, but also knew I didn't possess the skills to be able to push that hard and do it again on the next lap and feel sure I could repeat getting the throttle control on that perfect knife edge again - the odds were far higher that I'd crash so common sense prevailed and I backed off 1% next time around. Electronics and TC are CONSISTENT and therefore CAN do what I cannot. Yes MotoGP riders have much more ability and experience - but they are never going to be as consistent & accurate in their inputs as Electronics.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:23 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Ok.... I will try to keep it simple. You understand that there is one optimal racing line around a track, yes? There is also an optimal point of transition from getting off the brakes, and getting back onto the throttle. The amount of lean angle and power that can be applied is limited by the grip (less lean = more grip, more power). The OTT tech & TC optimises throttle and grip, & therefore acceleration & speed once past the Apex and OUT of a turn. Seamless auto box and slipper clutch helps maximise braking on corner ENTRY. All these things mean that while the tech helps reduce the relative gap between bikes, it makes it much, much harder to pass as the bike in front is near perfect, so you need to be better than perfect (impossible) to pass unless they make a braking error or you force one with a block pass to lose them time. See? Tech Closes time gaps, but also closes down the chances made by human error. Perfection equals PROCESSION. Human error and human skill are eroded by OTT

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:28 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: How quick is your brain scanning now, due to the rise in adrenalin due to you loosing control?
Its not adrenalin Mick, nor any "loosing" of control. If anything its tedium. You try to pose smart techie questions to misdirect. You're really just trying to discredit me, not what I'm saying (because you can't). You've conveniently overlooked parts of my posts you don't want highlighted. I'm providing logical, considered responses. I'm not pretending to be an Electronics Software Programmer. How about YOU answering one of mine? Which is: If the ECU is as ineffective as you claim, and its not actually assisting the riders, then why is electronic rider aids sucha big area of spending and development?

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:02 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


...... You're the one flogging a dead horse, as the proof of their effectiveness is that HRC spend BIG & use them. As for the general point? Its that the OTT electronics are taking away nearly all the opportunities to Race and Overtake. Hence the Block Pass being so popular, as physically disrupting another riders progress is the only way to create an opportunity, as the tech is eliminating all the other opportunities that could present with only human control. The technology and advanced performance of the bike packages now has transcended human limits in the pursuit of ever faster lap times. So its now getting pointless for a Rider competition, and the only beneficiary is the Manufacturer who spends biggest and wins most. This is the unfortunate reality Mick. You try hard to deny it, and yes this truth is not what most fans want to accept. Time to face reality.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:25 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


cokerel:
Talent Fan is right, smooth off, in order to get the tires to break back in to the limit of static friction, away from kinetic/dynamic friction. A high side happens when the rear wheel grips too suddenly and bike is cocked and both wheels are pointing different directions and your a** is flying like God lifted you out of the seat himself. wikipedia friction RSMick. You might learn something.
May be right but it is stating the obvious. My 12 year old nephew could work that one out.
Good. Can your nephew explain it to RSMick & mrfill please?

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:21 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: So IF the software was concentrating on counting a pulse what would be the minimum speed that the processor would need to scan at (loop) just to do that? Bear in mind its around 16k And again how quick do you think the ECU scans (loops) at?
I don't know and if I did I don't have access to their hardware now do I? It doesn't matter anyway. Off the shelf controllers for machinery can monitor & display several parameters at once - 20 or more without one compromising the other. Anyway - you don't need much speed (electronically speaking) to be faster than a human. Even your PC screen Refresh rate can be 50 times per second (Hz) and is more than fast enough to fool your eyes into thinking its permanently stable and not flashing. So 16,000Hz is way, WAY faster than human responses. How do you KNOW its "around" 16k anyway Mick?

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:14 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: no one said anything about panicking did they? Think what you wrote, and why I asked how quick does it take to turn the wrist 90deg at that point.
Good grief! If a rider is not 'panicking' then its because either he has anticipated (Proactive Action) the loss of traction and corrected himself, OR the system has already beat him to it. However, with no TC and the back suddenly breaking away (i.e the rider applied too much throttle and gets caught out) THEN it becomes a Reactive Action. Under such circumstances the reactive input is far likely to overcompensate, fully shut off and a Highside results. Its not how quickly he can close the throttle. Its how quickly his brain can tell him to shut it, and also accurately regulate HOW MUCH to close it simultaneously. Electronics get much more data and can react much, MUCH faster. Its WHY the Mfrs use it FFS! Its just BAD for Racing.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 8:49 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Oh Dear. RSMick. Lets talk basics. How about an engine speed limiter? A race engine spins up AMAZINGLY fast, and peaks at what, about 18,000rpm? Thats 300rpm per SECOND, or a Frequency of 300Hz yes? An ECU is able to recognise the rate of acceleration of the engine, recognise it will exceed its rpm limit, and modulate the throttles to prevent engine over-rev. An engine spins a LOT faster than a wheel (which also has a rate of change of speed thats a lot slower than an engine too), so an ECU has a LOT more time to work out wheel speeds relative to one another and do something about it. In fact, although it'd be much, MUCH harder to solve, I bet HRC have some algorithms to try to assist on closed throttle highsides as well. The biggest proof though is the fact that these systems are THERE and employed. If the human was better at the job, they'd be unnecessary. I know you are involved with electronics Mick, so maybe that's why you defend their use in MotoGP. You're the one flo

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:49 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


............. Also... the data tells them the absolute maximum F wheel speed that can be achieved at any point on the track, and I would expect its possible to adjust the peak parameter for F tyre wear through the ECU. Then the TC is programmed with the limit parameter for R wheel spped in relation to F wheel (to allow controlled power slides but prevent highsides on the throttle). The scope for tweaking rider aids within the vast array of sensors through data collection, analysis is almost only limited by your imagination, as long as the clever engineers can then construct a workable code. And HRC & Yam have some VERY clever engineers. So its very possible that they can program the ECU to be Proactive on throttle modulation to maximise lap time and help minimise excess spin and give the TC even less to do. Its how I'D do it, & HRC are cleverer than I am. So if I can think of it........

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:42 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Also. Basic stuff we use in machinery. Speed sensors able to measure in MHz, and controllers able to interpret and react in tiny fractions of a second. Its been reported that the very best racers have reaction times of over 0.5s, but less than 0.7s. If they have a reaction time less than 0.5, then it is because they anticipated the event and acted proactively, not reactively. (This is why Drag Racing has a minimum acceptable reaction time to launch.. to minimise wins gained through anticipating the lights). Now... are RSMick, Brain & mrfill REALLY going to try and tell us that electronics cannot react to a highside faster (and with just the right amount of throttle modulation by constant F & R wheelspeed monitoring) than a human? Also... the data tells them the absolute maximum F wheel speed that can be achieved at any point on the track, and adjust it for F tyre wear even through the ECU. So its very possible that they can program the ECU to be Proactive on throttle modulation


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