Crash.Net User: TalentFan

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TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:23 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Ok.... I will try to keep it simple. You understand that there is one optimal racing line around a track, yes? There is also an optimal point of transition from getting off the brakes, and getting back onto the throttle. The amount of lean angle and power that can be applied is limited by the grip (less lean = more grip, more power). The OTT tech & TC optimises throttle and grip, & therefore acceleration & speed once past the Apex and OUT of a turn. Seamless auto box and slipper clutch helps maximise braking on corner ENTRY. All these things mean that while the tech helps reduce the relative gap between bikes, it makes it much, much harder to pass as the bike in front is near perfect, so you need to be better than perfect (impossible) to pass unless they make a braking error or you force one with a block pass to lose them time. See? Tech Closes time gaps, but also closes down the chances made by human error. Perfection equals PROCESSION. Human error and human skill are eroded by OTT

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 5:02 PM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Part of Dovi's good performances on the Ducati are I think as a result of him demonstrating his intelligence and application of the understanding that braking is the only true competitive weapon a rider now has. So he focusses on Braking, which is also a strongest point reportedly of the Ducati armoury as well. So he is maximising his opportunity, and minimising his time losses within the limited framework that he can manage himself. Dovi is so late on the brakes that its damned hard to block pass him, while he can do it to you. But get in front of him and run it fast through a corner or two on the optimum fast line, and his oversteer problems means he struggles to hang in there as he cannot hold mid-corner speeds as high as the Yams and Hondas can. Dovi is a smart lad as well as talented. And he foccusses on Braking as he knows its key, and the only real weapon a rider has left.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 6:55 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


mrfill: If the electronics are as clever as you think, nobody would ever fall off unless they were hit. But they're not. It still requires skill to control the machine. When F1 had TC, cars still spun. MGP still has high sides. Moto2 has high sides - and they have no TC at all.
TC cannot do anything to manage and recover highsides initiated from a closed throttle, only from an open throttle mrfill. Check up, MotoGP boys are pushing so hard into the apex on braking that the rear can come around off the gas and then grip again at an acute angle and highside the rider. The TC is working to do its job, maximising grip & drive while controlling and regulating the throttle and wheelspin to prevent highsides ON THE POWER. Its not my fault if you dont understand whats happening and this stuff works.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:25 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


cokerel:
Talent Fan is right, smooth off, in order to get the tires to break back in to the limit of static friction, away from kinetic/dynamic friction. A high side happens when the rear wheel grips too suddenly and bike is cocked and both wheels are pointing different directions and your a** is flying like God lifted you out of the seat himself. wikipedia friction RSMick. You might learn something.
May be right but it is stating the obvious. My 12 year old nephew could work that one out.
Good. Can your nephew explain it to RSMick & mrfill please?

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 10:02 PM
Last Edited 20 days ago

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Brain A Moto2 bike makes what, 130bhp? Controlling 130bhp is well within ordinary road riders and clubbie race weekend warrior standard.... without slicks. A 1000cc with over 200bhp and no aids is a whole different ballgame. These things with a totally stupid 250+bhp would be unmanageable and proper nasty things. Just ask Pedro. Youve not dispelled any myths whatsoever. EDIT by CRASH.NET: Remove poster attack. And.. the times are closer with electronics. That does not mean that the racing is more competitive. Just look at the general finishing order week in, week out. Your argument leaks like a sieve, as its based on noise, not logic.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:05 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Brain: That makes no sense as usual. If the finishing times are closer than any time in the history of the sport, it most certainly means the racing is more competitive. Again, you know nothing about the history of the sport. From first to last, racing is closer than it has ever been PERIOD\blockquote] It makes no sense... TO YOU. It's not my fault you lack the wits to get it. If racers are running closer together only means that the electronics are minimising loss of time relative to one another. So yes, closer together. However, the regular and predictable finushing order HAS to tell you something. Which is that, despite bejng a bit nearer to a rival, they arent actually able to compete with that rival and effect a pass. And this is because while the OTT tech makes you lose less time, it means there is less human error, which equals far less opportunity for passes. GEEZ!

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 7:42 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Also. Basic stuff we use in machinery. Speed sensors able to measure in MHz, and controllers able to interpret and react in tiny fractions of a second. Its been reported that the very best racers have reaction times of over 0.5s, but less than 0.7s. If they have a reaction time less than 0.5, then it is because they anticipated the event and acted proactively, not reactively. (This is why Drag Racing has a minimum acceptable reaction time to launch.. to minimise wins gained through anticipating the lights). Now... are RSMick, Brain & mrfill REALLY going to try and tell us that electronics cannot react to a highside faster (and with just the right amount of throttle modulation by constant F & R wheelspeed monitoring) than a human? Also... the data tells them the absolute maximum F wheel speed that can be achieved at any point on the track, and adjust it for F tyre wear even through the ECU. So its very possible that they can program the ECU to be Proactive on throttle modulation

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 10:24 PM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: How long does it take for you to turn your hand 90deg in a moment of adrenalin rush? Why do we still get highsides? How long do you think it takes to scan the code?
The hard bit is NOT turning your hand 90 degrees. If you'd ever experienced a power slide you'd know that closing the throttle fully is THE way to ensure you'd get pinged to the moon. It needs to be backed off just enough to control the slide and bring it gently back into line. And electronics processes faster and with the right amount faster and more consistently than humans. Also, the rare highsides we get now are off a closed throttle, not on the power.

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 5:18 PM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Quote by RSMick "All the TC can do is attempt to keep control within the set parameters, once the bike is outside that then it cannot react as fast as the very talented right hand of the rider." Hogwash. If it was inferior to the riders reflexes and also a human reflex requiring micron-perfect throttle control.... then WHY IS IT FITTED AND SO MUCH IS SPENT ON IT???? Honda don't fit furry dice or ashtrays because they serve no useful function. They DO employ complex TC as a rider aid (as well as much much more) because TC can intervene and operate faster and more precisely than the human rider can, and can do so every single time to the same level of accuracy and delivery. Can you get past the safety net of TC? Yes of course if you push way beyond the limits of the recovery limits of the tyre and chassis capability. But this top grade TC will think and react faster and can therefore keep the slide within recoverable limits and thus save a crash that a rider would not save alone.

TalentFan

September 01, 2014 4:54 PM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: "So what you are admitting is that rider aids cannot help them into the corners? And they then can spin up thus lose time going INTO the corners?" Rider aids like the slipper clutch and seamless downshift help considerably on corner entry. So No I'm not. Your 2nd sentence is nonsense. "Once they have hit the apex". Is the key here. MotoGP 'block' passes prevent the rival from getting to the apex or from hitting the apex later. Its all about blocking the rival and delaying from apexing and thus delaying re-application of throttle.
Nothing to do with reducing the rivals corner speed then?[/blockquote] Yes, of course it is. Disrupt their speed more than you disrupt your own for net gain. I made this pretty clear I thought.


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