Crash.Net User: TalentFan

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TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:52 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


@ RSMick. You're clearly a clever guy and know lots more about how electronics work than I do. But... you seem a bit lacking in how a motorcycle reacts. I assume you ride, but from your lack of understanding, then either you have never experienced a Highside, or if you have, then you didn't undertstand what contributed to it, nor how to manage one. I HAVE had highsides, and I have also saved a few. And in truth when I managed to save one, I was dead chuffed, but also knew I didn't possess the skills to be able to push that hard and do it again on the next lap and feel sure I could repeat getting the throttle control on that perfect knife edge again - the odds were far higher that I'd crash so common sense prevailed and I backed off 1% next time around. Electronics and TC are CONSISTENT and therefore CAN do what I cannot. Yes MotoGP riders have much more ability and experience - but they are never going to be as consistent & accurate in their inputs as Electronics.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:28 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: How quick is your brain scanning now, due to the rise in adrenalin due to you loosing control?
Its not adrenalin Mick, nor any "loosing" of control. If anything its tedium. You try to pose smart techie questions to misdirect. You're really just trying to discredit me, not what I'm saying (because you can't). You've conveniently overlooked parts of my posts you don't want highlighted. I'm providing logical, considered responses. I'm not pretending to be an Electronics Software Programmer. How about YOU answering one of mine? Which is: If the ECU is as ineffective as you claim, and its not actually assisting the riders, then why is electronic rider aids sucha big area of spending and development?

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 10:11 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


It is assisting the riders to get to the flag, (CRASH PREVENTION) its 2 main functions are safety and efficiency (SPEED AND RELIABILITY OF GETTING TO THE FLAG FIRST, SAFETY SECONDARY) If they didn't have it those bikes would not make it on the fuel available to the end of the race (STUPID ARTIFICAL OVER-COMPLICATED RULE WHERE GETTING RID OF BOTH ACHIEVES THE RESULT FOR LESS) Wheelspin is wasted fuel, and they still do it (SOME WHEELSPIN IS NECESSARY TO PROVOKE MILD OVERSTEER AND MAKE TURNS) but as with the Pedrosa crash you mentioned the processor could not do its calculations in time to stop him launching into orbit (IT COULD NOT CALCULATE AS THE SPEED SENSOR HAD BEEN KNOCKED OFF BY MARQUEZ, AND HONDA HADN'T BUILT IN A RULE 101 SAFETY MODE OR A BACKUP)

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:02 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


...... You're the one flogging a dead horse, as the proof of their effectiveness is that HRC spend BIG & use them. As for the general point? Its that the OTT electronics are taking away nearly all the opportunities to Race and Overtake. Hence the Block Pass being so popular, as physically disrupting another riders progress is the only way to create an opportunity, as the tech is eliminating all the other opportunities that could present with only human control. The technology and advanced performance of the bike packages now has transcended human limits in the pursuit of ever faster lap times. So its now getting pointless for a Rider competition, and the only beneficiary is the Manufacturer who spends biggest and wins most. This is the unfortunate reality Mick. You try hard to deny it, and yes this truth is not what most fans want to accept. Time to face reality.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 10:20 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: "I have highsided only twice and I and every other bike rider in the universe knows why it happens, when it does my brain is reacting quicker than anything on the bike and shutting the throttle" No. You're reacting too late, and then over-reacting. Electronics benefit is that it reacts far faster, catches the event sooner before its gone beyond redemption, and then applies a measured ramp off of throttle to bring it back under control. "if everything happens within the set of parameters, outside of these its lost, so the riders brain needs to take over" See above. The job of the Tech is to keep things WITHIN parameters in the first place. So some of them are proactive, others reactive to prevent mechanical limits being exceeded (not the limits of the Electronics themselves). Yes the riders have to be brave and uber-talented. The fact is that even so the Electronic Rider Aids are there to do several tasks for them, as they can do them better and more consistently, and

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 10:30 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Mick. Its all related to why the Block Pass (this thread) is now so prevalent. And if you look at it, the limited repertoire is as a direct result of the electronics removing any opportunities anywhere except on the brakes. If drive off corners and down straights is optimised to the grip, and assuming bike performance is pretty equal and on the same tyres... then that leaves no opportunity for passing out of corners and down straights - simply as the machine ensures no human error or mistake is made, and that drive is always optimised. The guy behind always gets on the throttle after the guy ahead, and then has equal drive. So it all comes down to braking deep into the turn, forcing the rider ahead to run on or brake early as you have put your machine in the way. Even if you slow your own corner speed and lap time down in doing so, that does not matter as long as you slow your rival down more, so that once you get back on the gas before him - you're gone. MM used this method on

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:21 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: So IF the software was concentrating on counting a pulse what would be the minimum speed that the processor would need to scan at (loop) just to do that? Bear in mind its around 16k And again how quick do you think the ECU scans (loops) at?
I don't know and if I did I don't have access to their hardware now do I? It doesn't matter anyway. Off the shelf controllers for machinery can monitor & display several parameters at once - 20 or more without one compromising the other. Anyway - you don't need much speed (electronically speaking) to be faster than a human. Even your PC screen Refresh rate can be 50 times per second (Hz) and is more than fast enough to fool your eyes into thinking its permanently stable and not flashing. So 16,000Hz is way, WAY faster than human responses. How do you KNOW its "around" 16k anyway Mick?

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 9:14 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


RSMick: no one said anything about panicking did they? Think what you wrote, and why I asked how quick does it take to turn the wrist 90deg at that point.
Good grief! If a rider is not 'panicking' then its because either he has anticipated (Proactive Action) the loss of traction and corrected himself, OR the system has already beat him to it. However, with no TC and the back suddenly breaking away (i.e the rider applied too much throttle and gets caught out) THEN it becomes a Reactive Action. Under such circumstances the reactive input is far likely to overcompensate, fully shut off and a Highside results. Its not how quickly he can close the throttle. Its how quickly his brain can tell him to shut it, and also accurately regulate HOW MUCH to close it simultaneously. Electronics get much more data and can react much, MUCH faster. Its WHY the Mfrs use it FFS! Its just BAD for Racing.

TalentFan

September 02, 2014 8:49 AM

MotoGP » Marquez unapologetic over 'aggressive' Lorenzo pass


Oh Dear. RSMick. Lets talk basics. How about an engine speed limiter? A race engine spins up AMAZINGLY fast, and peaks at what, about 18,000rpm? Thats 300rpm per SECOND, or a Frequency of 300Hz yes? An ECU is able to recognise the rate of acceleration of the engine, recognise it will exceed its rpm limit, and modulate the throttles to prevent engine over-rev. An engine spins a LOT faster than a wheel (which also has a rate of change of speed thats a lot slower than an engine too), so an ECU has a LOT more time to work out wheel speeds relative to one another and do something about it. In fact, although it'd be much, MUCH harder to solve, I bet HRC have some algorithms to try to assist on closed throttle highsides as well. The biggest proof though is the fact that these systems are THERE and employed. If the human was better at the job, they'd be unnecessary. I know you are involved with electronics Mick, so maybe that's why you defend their use in MotoGP. You're the one flo


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